Good job, man! That template looks incredible in ableton. Are you sure all the tracks are pointing and merging as they should? Has anyone verified that? Does the template have any weak points that don’t mesh with Jaycen’s process? Thanks again so much for your willingness, time and for giving us the template.
Ableton is different.
This comes with down- but also upsides.
The upsides are:
- parallel groups with dry/wet chains
- simplicity and focus on the most important controls (used by JJ) with his min/max values
- easier enforcement of the same levels before and after, to better judge the influence and corrections in panning here and there, particularly on the NLS groups.
The downsides are:
- although send channels can be used to create print tracks, this comes with additional latency and often leads to issues with sync, The Grouping of channels can nearly completely simulate the print tracks and has no such problems.
- this also leads to a limitation regarding sidechains listening to multiple sources. One could use a send track for it, but it will be out of sync, so it is better to use the same plug with the same settings a few times after another for the bass sum with smooth2 listening to kick, lower toms, and possibly also percussions.
Other differences are:
- Ableton leveling is slightly different, but putting util with -6db on the sum (main) seems to remove the difference entirely.
Besides:
I tried this template since it’s updating a few times, and some parallel chains might still add a few db, so the latest additions still need a little bit to fully sink, but any reviews or suggestions are highly appreciated.
1 Like
Thank you very much for the clarifying information. I’ll have to study your template in more depth, but from what I can see so far everything makes sense. Have you tried producing or mixing on this template? And if so, what results have you had? Has it moved your mixes anywhere higher? Did your workflow have to change, how did you adjust to this new process?
Lastly, I wanted to ask about the Spectre plugin that Jason has started using on every group. Is there a reason why you didn’t integrate this plugin into the template?
1 Like
I’m not a professional mixing engineer, but I did roughly 10 mixes last year and they did come with a nice weight and analog touch compared to the mixes I did before.
I also need to point out, that my mixing template was very similar, and was mainly based on Andrew Shep’s techniques, most of which are presented here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdQ1R0CUtEo
so I have been using it for more than 5 years now.
I was also using the NLS Plugin from Waves, but in the way it was meant to be used, and it didn’t provide enough analog feeling.
The added weight comes probably from the solid low end (thanks to smooth2) and solid gain structure + thanks to the Shadow Hills and Black Box to master each “stem”.
I didn’t include the Spectre plugin, because I do not own it, but if you own it, it should be there!
Thank you for the quick reply!
I have a few more questions.
- Jaycen in the video - Lady London, Peter Fox, C. Tangana uses the Drum n Bass group: - on which he has a Clipper.
So can I merge in Ableton: Drum kit Aux with Bass - into one group and put the Clipper on top of it? Wouldn’t that disrupt the flow of sound? - Maybe a more complicated question - do you know how to make a version with Ableton Drum Rack? What would the template look like with that?
- Have you heard of vst: airwindows console 8? It’s a brilliant summing vst - one of a kind, great to use in ableton and completely free. How could I integrate this plugin into this template without disrupting the audio flow?
Thank you very much for the reply, I really appreciate your work.
1 Like
I noticed a bug that incredibly affected the volume and performance of the entire project. Now I’m getting down to -7LUFS.
I’ve noticed that the Kick AUX output is outputting a lower volume than what is fed to the Kick Return (I really don’t know what this is, as there is no process in between and where the 6db came from). That boosted volume went to your Drum kit Aux and the effect was completely different from Jaycen. I thought of deleting the ableton utility you had on the master (-6db) and instead put it on the Kick return (blue track) with the volume also -6db. What happened after that is unbelievable.
I really don’t know what it is, but now I feel like everything is working as it should.
Please try a solution: Remove the utility from the master -6db and instead put it on the light blue tracks: kick return, snare return and toms return.
thanks for the input, I’ll try it out for sure, are you able to upload your version into the drop box folder, to ensure the changes are done exactly as you proposed them?
To explain how the drums are build up (which would also apply to any drum rack or addictive drums or similar). I always want the Kick and the Base at to be first, since they build a foundation for the “dish/track” like the pizza dough. This is at least the analogy I always refer to. Once this foundation is perfect, the ingredients come on top of it.
The Kick however is a part of the drums so it’s not going directly to the master but is routed to the Drums. The same applies to the other AUX drum tracks. Sometimes I want also to glue the kick and the snare a little more, so that’s why they are separated and why they are also going to return the channel.
The difference between Ableton Live and other DAWs with regards to levels lies in how they handle gain staging and summing. Here’s a breakdown:
1. Summing Behavior
• In Ableton Live, when multiple audio signals are summed (e.g., two tracks routed to a group or master track), the output level increases due to summing. This is a natural result of combining signals, as their amplitudes are added.
• Other DAWs (like Logic Pro, Pro Tools, or Cubase) may have a default gain structure or compensatory gain staging that inherently accounts for summing behavior, sometimes maintaining perceived loudness levels or applying headroom adjustments.
2. Gain Staging
• Live’s approach: Ableton Live does not automatically compensate for gain changes caused by summing. If you sum two signals of the same level, the resulting signal can increase by up to 6 dB (depending on phase and correlation).
• Other DAWs: Some DAWs might apply an implicit headroom or level attenuation in summing buses to prevent clipping or excessive gain increase.
3. Utilities in Ableton Live
• The need to use a Utility device in Ableton Live to drop the gain by 6 dB is a manual approach to prevent level mismatch during summing. By attenuating the gain, you ensure that the summed signal aligns more closely with the levels expected in other DAWs.
4. Perceived Leveling Differences
• If you are switching between DAWs and notice Ableton Live sounding louder or quieter, it might be due to:
• Summing gain differences.
• Different default pan law settings (some DAWs apply pan laws that reduce level when panning).
• Internal headroom settings.
This -6db util on the summing side is therefor a common approach.
1 Like
Just to clarify, the light blue tracks, within the drums, are the channels KICK AUX, Snare AUX, and Toms AUX are sending to, to make the Drums, complete.
Hi Maciek, Denzel here! Im just wondering if youd be able to make a version of your JJ template for windows users. Your current template is coming up with the following error “Audio Unit v2 plug-ins are not available on your operating system” I think this is due to the fact that you created it on an OS system.
1 Like
I’m sorry. It was my measurement error. It’s an anomaly, but in the end it didn’t affect the sound.
What confused me was that when measuring the output of the Kick on the Kick aux, the kick has 6db less volume than when measured on the return track.
Kick: -12db – Kick Aux:-12db – Kick Return: -6db (where did the extra 6db come from, between Kick Aux and Kick return? There is no inter process between Aux and return and on return there should be -12Db, but there is not… Looks like a bug in Ableton, probably just me , I haven’t figured out what it is…
So I have to compensate for the 6db with the Kick Return utility…
Additionally I tried to combine Airwindows console 8 with this template of yours (Console 8 summing system really bypasses the ableon one and works differently) On each track there must be Channel in vst (your chain) channel out vst, same on groups - Sub In (your chain) Sub out and on output - Buss In (your chain) Buss Out. Try checking out that plugin it’s really special and the results from it too. The sound really takes on a cantilevered character and is More 3D. Also, for some reason the vst Trueverb stereo - foreground plugin works much, much better and the distance of the sound in the soundfield is audible immediately even to the untrained ear.
I’ll produce on your template, the workflow seems natural to me, it’s definitely possible to achieve fast results.
1 Like
oh, yes sure, I’m a mac user, didn’t think of that.
This would involve quite some work since each plugin would need to get replaced and reassigned, so honestly, I don’t know when I will have the time to do it, especially since there are also good reasons to use AU on mac, so I wonder if be possible for you to replace them. Maybe I could assist you at some point, if you don’t know what goes where.
here are the reasons to stick with AU when you are on mac, so the windows version would also be needed to be maintained separately:
1. Native Integration
• AU (Audio Units) are macOS’s native plugin format, developed by Apple. This gives AU plugins some advantages:
• They are tightly integrated with macOS’s Core Audio system, potentially leading to better performance and lower latency in certain scenarios.
• Native integration might mean fewer compatibility issues and better stability with Apple hardware and software.
• VST (Virtual Studio Technology) plugins are a cross-platform standard developed by Steinberg. They run well on macOS, but they require additional compatibility layers to interface with macOS’s audio system.
2. Host Optimization
• Some DAWs on macOS (like Logic Pro and GarageBand) are designed to work exclusively with AU plugins. In these cases, AUs might perform better because the DAW is optimized for this format.
• DAWs that support both AU and VST (like Ableton Live, Cubase, or Reaper) may not show a noticeable difference in performance between the two formats, as the DAW’s internal handling is what matters.
3. Performance
• CPU Efficiency: AU plugins might have a slight edge in macOS-native DAWs because they are streamlined for Core Audio. However, this difference is minimal and rarely noticeable in practice.
• Memory Usage: AU plugins might use slightly less memory due to tighter integration with macOS, but again, the difference is often negligible.
• Cross-DAW Consistency: VST plugins are designed to work uniformly across platforms, so they might not fully exploit macOS-specific optimizations.
4. Stability
• AU plugins tend to be more stable in macOS-exclusive DAWs like Logic Pro, as these DAWs are built specifically to work with AU.
• In cross-platform DAWs, there’s no inherent stability advantage between AU and VST plugins.
this sounds very cool, I will need to try it out 
the template is there to evolve 
I added Airwindow Console X to the template 
Additionally, I made a video about how to incorporate into existing projects or templates and what it brings to the table:
You can find the updated template here: Dropbox
1 Like
Wow this is really amazing! Glad you like the airwindows console! It was literally a game changer for me. This along with the ssl4000 (from Brainworx) on every channel (because of the TMT feature). The important thing is to map your midi controller and mixing literally becomes fun.
I’m still thinking about the CraneSong Phoenix 2 - it’s an irreplaceable tape plug-in that might fit nicely into the puzzle of an impressive console. Ableton is an incredible DAW for this stuff - your template proves exactly that. It wouldn’t be as clear and intuitive in another DAW. Your template + Airwindows console + brainwox’s SSL TMT technology + Jaycen’s tips for controlling foreground for example = the perfect inbox system
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
1 Like
I have one more question… Kick goes together with Drums in the same group as Shadow Hills Compressor and Black Box. The Blackbox, once it saturates the drums, saturates the kick at the same time. Which is fine. But I would need to somehow filter out the low frequencies in the hihats, becausew after the drums saturate, it adds a mess of low frequencies to the Hihats. Which is a problem though, because when I put a lowcut eq behind the blackbox, it naturally cuts the low frequencies out of the drums. Is there any routing solution so I can cut the low frequencies out of the hihats and not affect the whole drums?
Hi Roman, if I understand you correctly you don’t want Hihats to be part of drums, which have Shadow Hills and Black Box on them?
Honestly, the only solution I see here, is to put Black Box on any other Drums track on its one and leave it out on HiHats, but leave the Shadow Hills at the end of the chain, so you make sure that each Group/Stem is “mastered” on its own.
You mentioned me having the same combination (plus even NLS and Transformes) on the kick already. I added them to the Kick, because, depending on the gander, the Kick might be more important than the rest of the Drums in some electronic Music ganders, like House or Goa for instance, that is why I not only want sometimes to emphasise it more, but might even route it differently, out of the drums and either directly to Main or as a separate group with the Base.
When it comes to usual styles, where a Drum Kit should sound like one instrument, the extra processing is usually not added.
Thank you very much for your reply. You’re right, that’s the only option and it’s not satisfactory for me…
The only solution I could find is to put a dual band Gate (from Izotope Neutron 5 gate) at about -40Db. The gate only goes down from 150 hz. This will filter out the Hihats and other instruments in the drums from unnecessary sub frequencies, while keeping the high frequency detail intact from 150hz up. Kick is surprisingly little affected by -40db below 150hz. For me - solved.
1 Like
Maybe I’m not experienced enough, but I would rather not want the Hihat to have so much influence on the overall drum sound. It is always a little tricky to get it right, and I like the bit reduction trick, to make it less harsh, but sometimes you want it to be very high. Again depending on the gender, you could also route it out of the drums and treat it like percussions. This would work with isolated programmed drums but not with recorded drumkit or drum instruments like addictive drums.
Depends on the style… Listen: Nemzzz - Head And Shoulders 2. - Central sounds are kick, hihat and snare. Any other way you could have done the hihats, it would have been wrong… Try duplicating the sound. It’s a new trend - I’m not saying it’s a good thing, I’m not a proponent of it, but it is… The moment the hihats are blasting in your face, you need 100 percent clarity and control of their sound…
1 Like
That’s what I mean, here you have no DrumKit, only programmed drums sounds and they don’t need to sound glued in any shape or form.
Each element in there is an instrument on its own, so to try to replicate the sound, I would route the kick out of Drums and instead together with the 808 bases into one common “Pizza dough” channel (as I like to call it because it’s the same with Goa, where this must be a 100% stable foundation, and anything else are ingredients on top of it) and would also route the hi-hats out the the Drums, because they need to be the sizzle on top of everything, like the cheese on the pizza.